Tracey D:

If the Pentagon crash is talked about so much how come it's barely been mentioned in the UK newspapers/news today? Even the 4th plane has barely been mentioned, it's all about the WTC, which i think is a bit wrong when other people died in those other crashes.

Even at the time i don't remember the Pentagon being mentioned much!

Tracey D:

If the Pentagon crash is talked about so much how come it's barely been mentioned in the UK newspapers/news today? Even the 4th plane has barely been mentioned, it's all about the WTC, which i think is a bit wrong when other people died in those other crashes.

Even at the time i don't remember the Pentagon being mentioned much!
[/quote]


I can't tell you why your media has less coverage on those two planes. However, here in the US there is certainly attention on all four memorial locations and events taking place throughout the day at each spot. The reason of the overwhelming coverage of the twin towers may be that there were many more lives lost than in DC and PA...... but I know that America is focused on ALL of those who were affected by 9/11.

Femke:

babycat23:

The event has been "treated very American?" That may have something to do with it happening on American Soil. How should it be treated?? And there ARE terror attacks EVERYDAY in other countries of the world, just turn on the news to see how they handle it and what their reactions are. It's extremely naive of you to think that The President of the United States is just "silly" and "wanting to play with guns." Our President had no option other than to react and retaliate against those who were personally responsible for the terror attacks on our Country, those who are training as terrorists, and those who harbor terrorists in an effort to protect us from future potential attacks. Today should be EXACTLY what it is....A day of Prayer and Rememberance for those who lost their lives on September 11, 2001, which DOES mark a day that changed the world forever. If this didn't affect you or change who.... then I don't know what would!
[/quote]

Somehow I doubt that if it had happened anywhere else the need to invade Iraq would have been as urgent. Bush could have reacted differently, he chose not to. The result being a nasty war in Iraq that doesn't seem to end, thousands of people killed and has terrorism decreased? No, it has only gotten worse.

[quote name='*Karen*' post='671372' date='Sep 11 2006, 08:36 AM']
[quote name='saxamophonegill' post='671071' date='Sep 10 2006, 02:45 PM']
However Bush handled 9/11 he was always going to be criticised. No amount of preparation in the world can really and truly prepare you for anything like that happening. Now I'm not a Bush fan, he is only human and maybe he could have handled things differently, but could any of us have done any better? It was a mammoth task and it would have been difficult to know where to start.
Fair enough he has made some dodgy decisions but I think people should look at the bigger picture.

I don't agree here... when I saw all those documentaries again, how people helped each other to survive, how at once they've all been equal in front of that catastrophe..., no matter which class or race they had, how they fighted for each single life, no matter if it was the life of the windowcleaner or of the manager - there would have been a big, big chance to use this affection for solidarity campagnes, to give the US a more friendly face, to see themselves as a community, where one has to help the other. It could have been a big chance for social reforms... instead Bush prefered to use this emotional affection for creating thoughts of revenge, for messing up religion with war ideology, and headless shooting around in certain parts of the world, he used it for building "secret CIA prisons" and for having reasons to torture people. There's no excuse for that - and again he uses the 5th anniversary of 9/11 to overlap the news about those prisons in the medias and for playing 'Texas Poker', and that's abusing the victims. It was also him turning the world into a dark dystopia of itself, not only the terrorists. Be honest... if you would have read ten years before about Abu Gureib, about secret prisons, about torturing, about trapping poor young teenagers in the Army with wrong promises... you would have thought of it as of a paranoiac novel... and the worst part of all that is... he showed the world exactly that face of the US, that those terrorist killers pretent to fight against. Any other reaction of him, would have proven them wrong.

Your thoughts on this are truly twisted beyond belief. Bush is not an animal as you are making him out to be. He is trying to protect a nation!! Get real!

Babycat, please understand we are looking at this from a European perspective. Bush's actions have influenced our foreign policy beyond belief and not for the better. Because of Bush's decision to invade Iraq, and the need the EU felt to send troops, the EU has become very vulnerable for attacks. Most terroristic attakcs since 9/11 have been in Europe.

Edit: my quotes are all messed up

MMK:

There's a reasonable explanation offered for some of the "controversy" surrounding the events at the Pentagon.

I was particularly struck by this paragraph:

"There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet a basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. "We tend to associate major events--a President or princess dying--with major causes," says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. "If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us." In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting."

babycat23

ms.ohno:

I understand your frustrations and I can't stand Bush, BUT I can't help but sit here and think that your leaders aren't so bright either. These are grown men we are talking about here so you can't be controlled unless you allow yourself to be.

ms.ohno:

*nevermind*

it's all good

ms.ohno:

I understand your frustrations and I can't stand Bush, BUT I can't help but sit here and think that your leaders aren't so bright either. These are grown men we are talking about here so you can't be controlled unless you allow yourself to be.

*Karen*:

ms.ohno:

I understand your frustrations and I can't stand Bush, BUT I can't help but sit here and think that your leaders aren't so bright either. These are grown men we are talking about here so you can't be controlled unless you allow yourself to be.

Deesha this isn't a competition in whose leaders are better or worse... Anita started a discussion about what happened since 9/11 for the occasion of the memorial day... and it's only normal that such a discussion is very much focussed on Bush. If it didn't happen, I'm sure that he wouldn't have been elected again... he was a ridicoulous president before and was on his ranch most of the time... he never managed to come out of the shadow of his father... but after this day he could ride a wave of sympathy, respect... and yes... also angst. And so he became a "leader" that day... but that doesn't mean, that he became more intelligent and less paranoiac as well to be able to be a reasonable leader.
It defenitely wasn't his fault, that those terroristic acts happened... but he is responsible for making the world a more insecure place afterwards...I know that a big part of the Americans didn't vote for him, so there's really no need to feel personally implicated in this critics.

ms.ohno:

I don't care that it went in the Bush direction, but to not put fault or to not smell the poo in your own backyard, but point out the poo in someone else's is well...not right, to me anyway. And the discussion was Bush did this and this is how it affects our country..well, those countries have leaders that need to represent and stand up for their people - if their people are against the actions of Bush. So therefore, those leaders aren't much better then..........You are the company you keep.

*Karen*:

[quote name='babycat23' post='671799' date='Sep 11 2006, 07:47 PM']I understand that you are looking at this from another side.....which is why we are saying that this event affected the entire world. BUT... you and others on here imply that Americans think they are the center of the world based on the 9/11 attacks. I have lived here my entire life and have never met one person here who thinks that America is the center of the world. We do love our country....as others do.... but in no way do we like the attention of 9/11. There is nothing good about being the tarket of such a horrible attack. You make it as if we want the attention of this...when I am quite sure that most of us would give about ANYTHING to not have had the events of 9/11 take place in our country. Additionally, it is not the fault of America that your leader chose to send troops into Iraq and be a part of the war on terror. He too is trying to protect innocent lives and potential terror attacks.
[/quote]

I never said Bushs decision were the fault of "the Americans". But it must be possible to critizise the American government from a European perspective without being called naive .
I have huge pity and big sympahty for the suffering of the victims of 9/11, but I think that Bush abused this emotional affection for his own plans, or perhaps it was less than plans... nearly the whole world has been on the site of the Americains that day, but Bush didn't make reasonable use of this solidarity.
[/quote]

I don't think that you fully comprehend the gravity and history of America's issues with terrorism.

Val:

^^^

In all the excitement, I forgot to ask if anyone that has BBC2 watched the 3 hour long programme last night? And the 2 hour long programme tonight? I had to tape it myself, I wouldn't be able to sit there for that long ... there wouldn't be a tv free enough either. I think its called 'the path to 9/11' and its a docu-drama. What I saw of the start I really liked though. I got up to the point where they were following around the guy who made the homemade bomb that blew up the WTC in '94.
[/quote]

It is a great film. Everyone should watch it and maybe some of those on here would have a greater understanding of our war on terror.

*Karen*:

ms.ohno:

I understand your frustrations and I can't stand Bush, BUT I can't help but sit here and think that your leaders aren't so bright either. These are grown men we are talking about here so you can't be controlled unless you allow yourself to be.

Deesha this isn't a competition in whose leaders are better or worse... Anita started a discussion about what happened since 9/11 for the occasion of the memorial day... and it's only normal that such a discussion is very much focussed on Bush. If it didn't happen, I'm sure that he wouldn't have been elected again... he was a ridicoulous president before and was on his ranch most of the time... he never managed to come out of the shadow of his father... but after this day he could ride a wave of sympathy, respect... and yes... also angst. And so he became a "leader" that day... but that doesn't mean, that he became more intelligent and less paranoiac as well to be able to be a reasonable leader.
It defenitely wasn't his fault, that those terroristic acts happened... but he is responsible for making the world a more insecure place afterwards...I know that a big part of the Americans didn't vote for him, so there's really no need to feel personally implicated in this critics.

Simply not true. There is so much wrong with your statements that I don't even know where to begin.

[quote name='*Karen*' post='671920' date='Sep 11 2006, 09:51 PM']
[quote name='ms.ohno' post='671847' date='Sep 11 2006, 08:58 PM']
I don't care that it went in the Bush direction, but to not put fault or to not smell the poo in your own backyard, but point out the poo in someone else's is well...not right, to me anyway. And the discussion was Bush did this and this is how it affects our country..well, those countries have leaders that need to represent and stand up for their people - if their people are against the actions of Bush. So therefore, those leaders aren't much better then..........You are the company you keep.

Of course you are absolutely right that the leaders of our countries are involved in this processus as well, Deesha. I'm glad that Angela Merkel wasn't already chancellor earlier, because she probably would have agreed to Bush and would have sent German troups in the Iraq as well. But it's good that we live in a world, where everybody can express his and her opinons and not only the "leading few". I'm far away from beeing a person, who wouldn't blame our govenrment for wrong decisions as well . But it sadly is a fact, that Bush's decisions have much bigger effects for the rest of the world, than the decisions of a single European president. And so, as a citizan of the world, I don't feel as if it was someone elses backyard, I'm talking about. It changed my world as well, and so I think I have the right to be angry or upset or disappointed about it. I'm a member of amnesty international for 15 years now. I know people, who have been tortured...they suffer on it their whole life. And it horrifies me so much, that the American government is involved in things like that...

*Karen*:

I can understand when the people in the US feel the need to do that, but why should all the world participate?
[/quote]
Becaue it did change the world. I explain more later.... (see my reply to Val.)

We do commemorate the Holucaust, tsunami, and other such anniversaries. I can't explain why those rememberances in the US are not recognized by international media. Anything related to WWII was so long ago that only major anniversaries are remembered, with the odd years mentioned but not turned into a huge thing. We mourn the devastation of the Atomic Bombs. We regret the casualties. We really do. But it was almost beyond the realm of most people's memories.

The attacks on Sept 11 were not so long ago. We (Americans) remember the pain, the horror, the numbness. We choose to recognize it. It is not up to us if the world remembers alongside us. Americans have a right to have huge memorials for such a devastating day. The world has the right to choose.

International days of rememberance for terrorist attacks and national disasters are a good idea, in theory, but what day do we choose? That's the difficulty. Do we choose September 11th? July 7th? December 26th? August 6th? And what day would be designated as recognizing the suicide bombs in Isreal? Or attacks by the IRA? People would have a problem with any day. I think it is best to leave the specific memorial on the day of the event. Give each group a chance to mourn individually.

Tracey D:

you know what i aways wondered, why the plane crashing at the pentegon is never talked about, never mentioned? I don't even know how many died there, what damage it did etc, because it was kept so secret!
[/quote]
It (and the 4th plane) are talked about in the US, as some have mentioned. In fact, the 4th plane, United Airlines flight 93, is perhaps the most famous of all. The people aboard that plane are considered heros because that aircraft did not reach its intended target. There was a movie and a separate documentary made about it.

As for the theories mentioned later... why the highest officials were not in their offices. By the time the Pentagon was hit, most "important" officials had been evacuated to safe areas (bunkers, etc.). The other employees may not have been warned because they didn't want to create a panic. No one had any idea the Pentagon was a target until it was too late. (But there are evacuation plans in place for the higher officials just in case. They are always evacuated.) As for the secrecy and why we don't have so much information... the Pentagon is the command center for the military and other intelligence agencies. They already work under secrecy. It's not surprising that they wouldn't reveal information about evacuations.

Ines:

ive read a book "20 grandes conspiraciones de la historia" in which they author talked about the pentagon and the doubts surronding it.
it was said that all the "managers" and high-level people werent in the building, and that the people who were killed were simple employees. It makes you think that there were people who already knew.
ive also read that it wasnt a plane at all... but who knows?

Don't read everything you believe. Especially conspiracy theories. See above for the rest of my comments...

[quote name='Val' post='671673' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:50 PM']But honestly, thats almost saying that America is the world because it didn't really affect us here ...

When you board a plane (before this past summer at least), you had to take certain precautions. Yes? And certainly now you do. And why do you think the UK was able to find and capture those terrorists. My guess (or theory) is because they were made more aware of the dangers after 9/11. Yes, July 7th had a major impact on British policy, but that was long after 9/11.

It's the butterfly effect. (Try to find a short story called "A Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury. You might begin to appreciate the magnitude of something as slight as the flap of a butterfly's wings.)

[quote name='babycat23' post='671754' date='Sep 11 2006, 02:01 PM']
It's also insulting that "Americans Dissapoint you" because of Bush being re-elected. It really was a matter of who would be best for this country between him and John Kerry. With the options given to us.... obviouisly it was felt that our country would be better off with Bush remaining as our President. Once again..... 9/11 was not the fault of President Bush.

ms.ohno:

And the discussion was Bush did this and this is how it affects our country..well, those countries have leaders that need to represent and stand up for their people - if their people are against the actions of Bush. So therefore, those leaders aren't much better then..........You are the company you keep.[/quote]I remember thinking at the time (and at several points since) that there must be more going on behind the scenes than we knew. My optimistic side thought that there could be some kind of intelligence information that the public couldn't be told or wouldn't understand (we've seen since that a lot of the intelligence involved was severely flawed/lacking ) but there was also a nagging possibility that it could be something else. Probably financial motivations. I think the UK are still paying off WW2 debt to the US, for example. Not to mention the possible influence of big business (you do x then we'll give you y or you don't do x then we'll give y to someone else...).

You know that scene in Love Actually when Hugh Grant (as the UK Prime Minister) stands up to the US President (Billy-Bob Thornton) at a press conference and says words to the effect that "no, actually, this isn't a special friendship, this is bullying"? That got cheered in cinemas. That is how it appears to a lot of people.

[quote name='babycat23' post='671986' date='Sep 12 2006, 02:54 AM']The American government is Not involved in the "torture" of people. Would love to know where you get your information about America.

babycat23:

I don't think that you fully comprehend the gravity and history of America's issues with terrorism.

There is so much wrong with your statements that I don't even know where to begin.

The American government is Not involved in the "torture" of people. Would love to know where you get your information about America.

flechesbleues:

Of course 9/11 was horrific and needs to be remembered (but not milked). I remember sitting in front of my TV in shock for hours. But alongside those feelings of horror I was also petrified about what the US Government would do next. I knew that would probably have wide-reaching effects and last for a long time. Revenge really isn't that sweet.

I couldn't have imagined then that they'd declare war on countries that weren't involved, insult anyone who tried to reason with them (I was living in France when the Iraq war started ) and flout the Geneva Conventions left right and centre. It's all very depressing, and an affront to the memory of the people who died that day that their tragic deaths have been used as an excuse for so much. It leaves rather a bitter taste in the mouth and sadly means that each anniversary will also be a reminder of what followed.

marielovesjamie:

People, world war III is happening, even before the 11th of september 2001.
Everything changed after that day and it's not looking good, especially for us (europe), because we are facing a lot of attacks against our way of living.
Did you know that in some countries it's forbidden to have a dog or a cat because it's to western?
And also forbidden to have a 'Barbie-doll'.
What is happening?????
I'm very sad that i don't have a save future for my kids
In what kind of world will they live?

12 September 2006 - The U.S. Embassy in Damascus was attacked by four terrorists who detonated a car bomb before being shot dead by Syrian security forces, the U.S. and British governments and witnesses said.

Syrian forces are in control of the area in central Damascus following the attack, Curtis Cooper, a U.S. State Department spokesman in Washington, said in a telephone interview. He said he hadn't any immediate details on American casualties.

Four Islamic militants were killed by security forces in the attack, the U.K. government said in a statement. Witnesses said the terrorists detonated one car bomb, while a second vehicle containing explosives was disarmed by security forces. Television pictures showed a small white van with what appeared to be explosives and gas cylinders in the back.

The attack came in the Ain Remmeneh district, where the U.S. and several other foreign missions are located. Peter Ford, the U.K. Ambassador to Syria, said in a telephone interview with Cable News Network that the attack appeared to be the work of a small group and the tactics didn't seem to resemble those of al- Qaeda.

There was a firefight lasting about 30 minutes with explosions, and smoke rose from near the U.S. Embassy, Colonel Julian Lyne-Pirkis, Defense Attache in the British Embassy in Damascus, said in a telephone interview.

``We heard explosions and gunfire and there was a big plume of smoke. Initially we thought that was the embassy on fire but we now think it may be a vehicle,'' he said. The British Embassy is about 400 meters (365 yards) away.

ms.ohno:

It's September 12, 2006 and we've survived the 5 year anniversary.

Amazing to me the kids they showed on television who were commemorating 9/11.
Kids are so beautiful. They aren't so infiltrated with fact, non-facts, opinions, and such.
They just said prayers, made pictures and played with other kids who lost parents.
I just love that. I think adults need to take a lesson from them truthfully.

If only it were that simple.

Femke:

babycat23:

The event has been "treated very American?" That may have something to do with it happening on American Soil. How should it be treated?? And there ARE terror attacks EVERYDAY in other countries of the world, just turn on the news to see how they handle it and what their reactions are. It's extremely naive of you to think that The President of the United States is just "silly" and "wanting to play with guns." Our President had no option other than to react and retaliate against those who were personally responsible for the terror attacks on our Country, those who are training as terrorists, and those who harbor terrorists in an effort to protect us from future potential attacks. Today should be EXACTLY what it is....A day of Prayer and Rememberance for those who lost their lives on September 11, 2001, which DOES mark a day that changed the world forever. If this didn't affect you or change who.... then I don't know what would!
[/quote]

Somehow I doubt that if it had happened anywhere else the need to invade Iraq would have been as urgent. Bush could have reacted differently, he chose not to. The result being a nasty war in Iraq that doesn't seem to end, thousands of people killed and has terrorism decreased? No, it has only gotten worse.

*Karen*:

saxamophonegill:

However Bush handled 9/11 he was always going to be criticised. No amount of preparation in the world can really and truly prepare you for anything like that happening. Now I'm not a Bush fan, he is only human and maybe he could have handled things differently, but could any of us have done any better? It was a mammoth task and it would have been difficult to know where to start.
Fair enough he has made some dodgy decisions but I think people should look at the bigger picture.
[/quote]

I don't agree here... when I saw all those documentaries again, how people helped each other to survive, how at once they've all been equal in front of that catastrophe..., no matter which class or race they had, how they fighted for each single life, no matter if it was the life of the windowcleaner or of the manager - there would have been a big, big chance to use this affection for solidarity campagnes, to give the US a more friendly face, to see themselves as a community, where one has to help the other. It could have been a big chance for social reforms... instead Bush prefered to use this emotional affection for creating thoughts of revenge, for messing up religion with war ideology, and headless shooting around in certain parts of the world, he used it for building "secret CIA prisons" and for having reasons to torture people. There's no excuse for that - and again he uses the 5th anniversary of 9/11 to overlap the news about those prisons in the medias and for playing 'Texas Poker', and that's abusing the victims. It was also him turning the world into a dark dystopia of itself, not only the terrorists. Be honest... if you would have read ten years before about Abu Gureib, about secret prisons, about torturing, about trapping poor young teenagers in the Army with wrong promises... you would have thought of it as of a paranoiac novel... and the worst part of all that is... he showed the world exactly that face of the US, that those terrorist killers pretent to fight against. Any other reaction of him, would have proven them wrong.
[/quote]


Your thoughts on this are truly twisted beyond belief. Bush is not an animal as you are making him out to be. He is trying to protect a nation!! Get real!
[/quote]

Babycat, please understand we are looking at this from a European perspective. Bush's actions have influenced our foreign policy beyond belief and not for the better. Because of Bush's decision to invade Iraq, and the need the EU felt to send troops, the EU has become very vulnerable for attacks. Most terroristic attakcs since 9/11 have been in Europe.

Edit: my quotes are all messed up
[/quote]

I am aware that there have been attacks over there. However, we too have had 5 potential MAJOR terrorist plans which were foiled before taking place. With that said, we are at risk for a terror attack on our soil at any given moment of any day. This is why we are at war. For the record, ONCE AGAIN, President Bush DID NOT start this war. This had been coming for decades preceeding Bush. I am happy to have a President who is NOT willing to tolerate terror attacks in our country and who is doing the best that he can to let those who hate us know that we won't stand for their actions against us. I only hope that our next President in 2008 is even tougher than George Bush on this war. As far as I'm concerned.... the United States has been Far too "politically correct" with defending ourselves. We need a Leader who will take an even stronger stand...despite the critics of war.

*Karen*:

babycat23:

I don't think that you fully comprehend the gravity and history of America's issues with terrorism.

There is so much wrong with your statements that I don't even know where to begin.

The American government is Not involved in the "torture" of people. Would love to know where you get your information about America.
[/quote]

The American government streched the rules for "interrogations" so far, that everyone else would describe it as torture. It's not even a few weeks ago, that a man from Germany, who was imprisoned in Guantanamo for 4 years (!) has been brought back to Frankfurt. He was suspected to have contacts to Al Quaeda. In his release notes is written, that it was obvious that he didn't have those contacts. Although they brought him in handcuffs and transported him laying on the floor of the airplane, what is quite mortifying for an innocent man, who only traveled through the eastern world to learn something about the muslim religion. He was in an isolation cell for 4 years, they never turned the light out, he could take a shower only once a week, they played music all the time and never let him sleep more than 2 hours the first months, he had no intimacy to use the toilet, he was beaten during the interrogations and he was threatened with more physical violence. If you read the same about the Falun Gon prisoners in China, you would call it torture, I'm sure.
When does "torture" start for you? , with pulling out fingernails? And why do you think does somebody need "secret jails"? If anything that happened was legal there, they don't have to be secret. You can be sure that the newspapers I read had quite a reputation to loose, if they lied about such important things.

Americas issues with terrorism... well
The declared target of America is to export democracy in the world, isn't it? It worked fantastic with Germany after the second world war. But the disposition was quite different. It was Germany who started the war, it was undenyable that the German government and in fact almost the whole population has been involved in horrible things with the jewish people, with homosexuals and political 'enemies'. There was really no possibility else, than admitting to be guilty, to wait for 'punishment' and to hope to survive it. But then instead of revenge after the bombs the population received care packages and administrative help to build the country up again. And it was this generosity even with someone who was undoubtfully guilty, that made Germany to a country, which will always be grateful towards England, France and the US and which appreciates and honors the new values and governance models, which came together with the care packages, perhaps more in the meantime, than some of those countries themselves.

But in the middle east countries this will not work like this. There has to be found another method to convince people from democracy, because a terroristic attack isn't a declaration to war. The civil citizans of those countries where the terrorists live or come from as well, didn't "vote" them, in fact throwing a bomb, which kills civil citizans also, is very much the same as a terroristic act. Those poeple feel innocently attacked, and that rather raises anger and thoughts of revenge.
I'm clearly not against fighting against terrorism, but it should be a fight of the police, not of the army. 9/11 was also a case of failure of investigations...and it's really good that now the different authorities of inquiring work together instead of competitive to each other. That's a great success. But it has nothing to do with the activities of the army in Iraq.

How should people be treated in prison who are being held for mass murder??? Also, the "police" can NOT fight terrorism. This is what troops are trained for. Additonally I don't know how you can say that a terror attack is NOT a declaration of war!! If that isn't....then what the hell is????

[quote name='*Karen*' post='672065' date='Sep 12 2006, 08:35 AM']
[quote name='flechesbleues' post='672049' date='Sep 12 2006, 06:32 AM']
Of course 9/11 was horrific and needs to be remembered (but not milked). I remember sitting in front of my TV in shock for hours. But alongside those feelings of horror I was also petrified about what the US Government would do next. I knew that would probably have wide-reaching effects and last for a long time. Revenge really isn't that sweet.

I couldn't have imagined then that they'd declare war on countries that weren't involved, insult anyone who tried to reason with them (I was living in France when the Iraq war started ) and flout the Geneva Conventions left right and centre. It's all very depressing, and an affront to the memory of the people who died that day that their tragic deaths have been used as an excuse for so much. It leaves rather a bitter taste in the mouth and sadly means that each anniversary will also be a reminder of what followed.

I couldn't have said that better... when I saw it in the news my first thought was "OMG , those poor people - this is SO horrible", but my second was "Please stay reasonable in front of this, Mr. Bush"... I said that like a mantra in my head again and again for days. I'm not "disappointed by the Americans" that they voted for Bush again... it was a democratic action and I won't dare to critisize how someone votes generally.
But I'm kind of disappointed or I can't understand why, if so many Americans are against that war, and against Bush social politics and against how the horror of Newe Orleans was handled... why aren't there rebellious movements IN the US, why are there so few demonstrations, why let people do all that to them?
I'm sure if in France or Italy or Germany or England or the Netherlands the presidents had to admit about secret jails, about throwing away the Geneva Conventions about how to treat prisoners... we had the hell of protesting people on the streets until the government was forced to do new elections. But the US stays quiet... and that kind of disappoints me.

[quote name='*Karen*' post='672076' date='Sep 12 2006, 08:46 AM']
[quote name='marielovesjamie' post='672064' date='Sep 12 2006, 08:20 AM']
People, world war III is happening, even before the 11th of september 2001.
Everything changed after that day and it's not looking good, especially for us (europe), because we are facing a lot of attacks against our way of living.
Did you know that in some countries it's forbidden to have a dog or a cat because it's to western?
And also forbidden to have a 'Barbie-doll'.
What is happening?????
I'm very sad that i don't have a save future for my kids
In what kind of world will they live?

I don't think that we are in the middle of a war... of course there are countries which supress women, wich ride roughshod over human rights... but it was ever like this and the measures to change it are not declaring war to those countries, they are rather to bring education and prosperity in those countries.... if human rights or the deliverance of women would be the reason to declare war to a country, the war targets would be different from what they have been lately. To be honest... I can understand about the Barbie doll ... you could argue that it gives little girls a wrong image of womanhood... and that a culture thinks that animals should not live in a two room flat is not that unreasonable as well. Look at our culture with a muslim view just as a try.... there are girls which starve themselves to death, which cut themselves with knifes because they feel sad with their bodies...this is very strange and not really understandable, when you don't stuck in the middle of it. I can't blame them to be suspicious about that part of our culture, that relates to barbie-dolls and silicon breasts.

Karen- You don't THINK that we are in the middle of a war??? It's comments like that which lead me to believe that you truly live in La-La Land. You CAN understand why people are against having Barbie Dolls and Pets....... but you can't understand why The United States of America wants to protect itself from future terror attacks??? Ummmmmm..... makes ZERO sense. What a freakin joke!!!!

[quote name='Funtin'' post='672128' date='Sep 12 2006, 12:17 PM']
Looks like it's not over by a long shot...
[quote]12 September 2006 - The U.S. Embassy in Damascus was attacked by four terrorists who detonated a car bomb before being shot dead by Syrian security forces, the U.S. and British governments and witnesses said.

Syrian forces are in control of the area in central Damascus following the attack, Curtis Cooper, a U.S. State Department spokesman in Washington, said in a telephone interview. He said he hadn't any immediate details on American casualties.

Four Islamic militants were killed by security forces in the attack, the U.K. government said in a statement. Witnesses said the terrorists detonated one car bomb, while a second vehicle containing explosives was disarmed by security forces. Television pictures showed a small white van with what appeared to be explosives and gas cylinders in the back.

The attack came in the Ain Remmeneh district, where the U.S. and several other foreign missions are located. Peter Ford, the U.K. Ambassador to Syria, said in a telephone interview with Cable News Network that the attack appeared to be the work of a small group and the tactics didn't seem to resemble those of al- Qaeda.

There was a firefight lasting about 30 minutes with explosions, and smoke rose from near the U.S. Embassy, Colonel Julian Lyne-Pirkis, Defense Attache in the British Embassy in Damascus, said in a telephone interview.

``We heard explosions and gunfire and there was a big plume of smoke. Initially we thought that was the embassy on fire but we now think it may be a vehicle,'' he said. The British Embassy is about 400 meters (365 yards) away.

babycat23

ms.ohno:

Maybe you guys don't see this type of activism in your papers or media, but trust me...the USA stands up for what they believe in. I can truly attest to that 100%. The US DOES NOT STAY QUIET. Of course the media won't put these things all over television, but trust me..it's there.
[/quote]

Really good and relieving to hear that, Deesha!!!! You're right, we don't see very much of it in German media.

flechesbleues

With respect for their basic human rights. Two wrongs don't make a right.

QUOTE (babycat23 @ Sep 12 2006, 03:27 PM)

ms.ohno:

Oops, because I didn't read all the responses, I am just seeing something that I want to speak about.

Tina - there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (I can't stress that enough) marches, demonstrations and organizations that are against Bush and his policies and stand up for what happened in New Orleans. I live in a city that houses many of the National documents and almost daily there are protests there. These are led by all types of people. Bush was here a few months ago and we couldn't even come to work because the amount of protesters outside. Many, who got arrested for their belief in what they were standing up for.

New Orleans - OH MY GOSH. I can only speak for the Black community, but there is so much uproar about that whole thing. Spike Lee recently made a movie about it to be shown on HBO, rapper Mos Def recently got arrested at MTV for doing his song Katrina Clap about New Orleans. There are investigations and guerilla groups that are taking their cases to court and fighting the system and the treatment.

Maybe you guys don't see this type of activism in your papers or media, but trust me...the USA stands up for what they believe in. I can truly attest to that 100%. The US DOES NOT STAY QUIET. Of course the media won't put these things all over television, but trust me..it's there.

Not to mention the around the clock protests that happen around Bush's home. We have demonstrators for everything - and I mean everything that goes in different countries. As I look out my office window right now, there are a bunch of Chinese that sit all day and pray and hand out pamphlets about the torture there.

There are also organizations in almost every major city that help the elderly/handicap get out the house and vote..as in pick them up and take them to the polls to ensure that all votes are counted.

I could go on forever...but no, we don't stay quiet at all

ms.ohno:

Oops, because I didn't read all the responses, I am just seeing something that I want to speak about.

Tina - there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (I can't stress that enough) marches, demonstrations and organizations that are against Bush and his policies and stand up for what happened in New Orleans. I live in a city that houses many of the National documents and almost daily there are protests there. These are led by all types of people. Bush was here a few months ago and we couldn't even come to work because the amount of protesters outside. Many, who got arrested for their belief in what they were standing up for.

New Orleans - OH MY GOSH. I can only speak for the Black community, but there is so much uproar about that whole thing. Spike Lee recently made a movie about it to be shown on HBO, rapper Mos Def recently got arrested at MTV for doing his song Katrina Clap about New Orleans. There are investigations and guerilla groups that are taking their cases to court and fighting the system and the treatment.

Maybe you guys don't see this type of activism in your papers or media, but trust me...the USA stands up for what they believe in. I can truly attest to that 100%. The US DOES NOT STAY QUIET. Of course the media won't put these things all over television, but trust me..it's there.

Not to mention the around the clock protests that happen around Bush's home. We have demonstrators for everything - and I mean everything that goes in different countries. As I look out my office window right now, there are a bunch of Chinese that sit all day and pray and hand out pamphlets about the torture there.

There are also organizations in almost every major city that help the elderly/handicap get out the house and vote..as in pick them up and take them to the polls to ensure that all votes are counted.

I could go on forever...but no, we don't stay quiet at all

*Karen*

flechesbleues:

babycat23

With respect for their basic human rights. Two wrongs don't make a right.

babycat23:

flechesbleues:

babycat23

With respect for their basic human rights. Two wrongs don't make a right.

YES!!! I do think that we should imprison terrorists without a trial, read people's emails, listen to phone calls and ignore the advice of other countries!! Absolutely!!! Do you know that 9/11 would have been foiled had we simply looked into the laptop of one of the terrrorists that had planned the attacks? Because of "no warrant" we were NOT able to look into this information!! Are you also aware of the fact that our country had missles aimed at Bin Laden's head on NUMEROUS occasions and DID NOT fire them because of us trying to be "politically correct??" That is what we got for "taking the advice" of other countries. We learned a huge lesson in that and should do whatever it is that we need to... to protect ourselves from another attack. Surely you know that there are hundreds of plans to attack the US. Do you think that we should just stand by and allow these attacks to happen...as not to offend anyone by listening to their phone calls?? Please!

Femke:

Babycat, the US Army/Airforce attacked military and civilian targets in Iraq in 2003. To me this sounds like the start of a war. They weren't backed up by NATO nor the UN, but Bush and Blair decided to go on with it anyway. Granted, the attack was provoked by organised crime, but the Bush administration could have chosen to act differently. Yes, it is part of a larger picture, but the Bush administration saw themselves fit to prevent the world against terrorism. Look where we are now. Hardly a success story.

MoonAndMe:

I meant to say this earlier, but forgot.

*Karen*

Unfortunately for the US, our government is put in a precarious situation concerning the Geneva Convention and the treatment of terrorist suspect. These people are not fighting by the codes of Geneva. Their war, their jihad is not defined by other countries. It is only defined by themselves. This leads to the question... If they are not fighting us by the Geneva Convention, why should they be treated with the respect outlined by it?

Not that I necessarily agree with that. It was just brought to my attention the other day.